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00:00 Introduction
00:38 Meet Sarah Levinger: Consumer Behavior Expert
03:37 The Power of Emotional Connections in Marketing
13:10 The Role of Surveys and Reviews
17:32 Understanding Generational Differences
22:19 Balancing Psychology and Authenticity in Branding
26:46 The Evolution of Trust in Brands
29:34 The Importance of Humanizing Your Brand
32:48 Future Consumer Expectations
35:34 Behavioral Analysis in Marketing
48:25 Advice for Aspiring Entrepreneurs
50:55 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
[00:00:00] Sarah: I have all of this knowledge around the customer, who they are, and I take that back to the brands to say, this is who you’re actually dealing with, and this is how we probably need to message to that
[00:00:08] Sarah: I wish more brands would use the data they have and just start doing the work of analyzing for emotional data and insights instead of just transactional
[00:00:18] Courtney: Hi, my name is Courtney and welcome to How They Scaled It, where scaling is done with both sides of the brain. On this show, we sit down with growth stage businesses and speak with founders and industry leaders from e commerce and SaaS sectors. We showcase their journeys, unpacking pivotal moments, marketing strategies, and the key decisions that shaped their success.
[00:00:38] Courtney: Today, I’m bringing on Sarah Levenger. Sarah is a Forbes featured consumer behavior analyst, creative strategist, and performance creative consultant. To date, she has helped hundreds of e commerce brands increase their paid advertising ROI using psychology based creative, and has worked with brands like Hexclad, True Classic, Obvi, Fabletics, and Original Grain.
[00:01:00] Courtney: She is widely recognized for her innovative approaches to analytics, emphasizing the synergy of clarity, creativity, and results driven decision making. Sarah is driven by a deep commitment to understanding and harnessing the human side of data. Her work emphasizes the fusion of psychology, storytelling, and analytics to create authentic, impactful connections between brands and their audiences.
[00:01:22] Courtney: Sarah, it is so great to see you, and welcome to How They Scaled It. Of
[00:01:28] Sarah: I’m excited to chat.
[00:01:30] Courtney: course, of course. No, we, um, like I mentioned earlier, we love you at the agency, so I’m so excited that you were able to actually join.
[00:01:37] Courtney: So, to start out, I would love to hear more about Tether Insights and how you founded it, because now it’s kind of this huge, beautiful company. So, where did it start? Yeah.
[00:01:48] Sarah: so bad. I need to, I need to tell more people about it.
[00:01:51] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:01:53] Sarah: things where you get so good at like marketing other people’s businesses that you kind of forget to market your own. So Tether was actually kind of born out of my own freelance work, which is interesting. I, I’ve been a freelancer for a very, very long time, like 16, 17 years.
[00:02:07] Sarah: I kind of just kept falling into all these different, I don’t know, like marketing spots, right? Like marketing disciplines. So for a long time I did WordPress websites and I did email, you know, campaigns and marketing and I did SMS and I did all kinds of things. Early kind of like 2018, 2019, I had accidentally kind of fallen into paid advertising and it was interesting because at the time we were just about to hit that kind of iOS 14 phase where everybody was about to lose targeting.
[00:02:32] Sarah: Everything was about to go heavy, solid on creative side and everybody was kind of freaking out. So I had kind of an opportunity to work with a smaller agency, really nice guy. One of my good friends, Matt Lady. And he, he kind of gave me the opportunity to come in and learn from him as a media buyer.
[00:02:49] Sarah: And I think he kind of noticed pretty quickly that like, Sarah’s really good at creative. I was kind of a mediocre media buyer. he kind of brought up like the suggestion of, do you just want to move over and be a creative strategist for us and kind of help us do more on the creative side, just cause you’re really strong at it.
[00:03:05] Sarah: Every time we run a Sarah ad, it seems to do pretty well. So. I didn’t know I was doing it at the time, but I was applying all of this psychology knowledge that I had basically just kind of self studied for about 10 years. And that was just based on, I just loved it. I liked the medium. I really liked the knowledge.
[00:03:22] Sarah: I liked the industry. So I had gone to the library of all places and just kind of consumed as many of these like big 1980s textbooks on early childhood development and like all these different books on neuroscience. So I had gotten all of this knowledge and I started applying it at this agency. And then over the course of the last four years, I’ve developed kind of these different systems that I would use just for my own benefit, for how to pull out all of the different things that customers need from products and from brands to be able to create these emotional connections.
[00:03:52] Sarah: So. I had a lot of these like mini systems in my own internal business that I just decided it’s beneficial. I think for one person to have this knowledge, but it’s even better if the entire industry can use these insights because the deeper you connect with customers, the faster these brands will grow.
[00:04:08] Sarah: And I’m a true believer in like good businesses create good worlds, right? So we got to have businesses that have access to human data so that we can all start to kind of generate a kind of better culture for ourselves. And that’s kind of how Tether was born. So I took everything I learned for the last 10 years of being a media buyer and studying psychology, and then, created a business that would kind of bring consumer insights to the DTC masses.
[00:04:34] Courtney: I love that you accidentally fell into. I feel like that’s the story of every single agency owner. Every marketer is like, yeah, it was kind of like doing this thing freelance. And then I accidentally got really good at it. And so then I just made a career out of it. It’s like,
[00:04:46] Sarah: I accidentally got good at it.
[00:04:47] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:04:48] Sarah: Yes. Oh my gosh. Well, I think that’s, kind of, it’s so helpful. I think when you start to generate good. Brands are good businesses from accidentally becoming good at something. Cause that usually is a good sign that that person just really loves what they do. And I’ve noticed the more you love what you do and the more you just really get into it, the more excited other people get about it too.
[00:05:09] Sarah: So accidents are a good thing.
[00:05:11] Courtney: I also feel like your timing was so perfect, given that, like, with iOS dropping out, and people needing, like, I feel like the last, five years or so, we’ve just really had to get into authentic marketing, where it used to be so easy, you could just slap anything up, and the targeting would do all of the work for you, and now that’s really shifted to the creative really has to do All of the work, that the targeting used to do.
[00:05:35] Courtney: And so, the timing of it is perfect because you don’t have all these, like, easy little shortcuts anymore and, targeting down to, like, ten people. You have to actually, make an ad that the right people would actually respond to.
[00:05:49] Sarah: Yes. Oh my gosh. A hundred percent. And it’s interesting too, because I truly believe that that came out to just straight luck, like Sarah just happened. And luck is really interesting. Cause
[00:05:58] Courtney: We’ll say fate. We’ll say fate.
[00:06:00] Sarah: yes, fate, right? Destiny, whatever you want to call it. I think people think that luck is one of the things you run into, but I truly believe that luck is just a combination of right skillset, right time, right?
[00:06:11] Sarah: So just based on the fact that I had all this knowledge of 10 years worth of studying. And I, I happened to run up against a very strange time where the industry needed that kind of knowledge that it just became a good serendipitous situation. So yes, I also think, um, to your point, like targeting was really interesting because for a long time, all we had to do was just send another ad that said a very specific thing and people would buy.
[00:06:36] Sarah: Now, the interesting part about that is like, we were using some very serious psychology and behavior in retargeting in that particular period of like meta and Facebook, whatever you want to call it. After that changed, it’s fascinating cause we’re still using behavior and we’re still kind of using the psychology, but it’s, much more nuanced now.
[00:06:55] Sarah: You have to be a little bit more skilled, I would say, because now all of your targeting has to be done through an identity instead of through behavior. So we’ve just kind of switched which piece of humans we’re actually marketing to. Yeah.
[00:07:11] Courtney: I think just instead of putting out 10 or 15 or 100 ads, you’re, Just being a lot more thoughtful, which it was kind of honestly brings us back to like how we used to approach traditional marketing where you have like one shot to make a billboard, so you better be thoughtful about it.
[00:07:26] Courtney: You don’t want to waste all your money. And, you know, you want to teach the algorithm the correct thing. So you really have to be thoughtful about the ads that you’re putting out there.
[00:07:33] Sarah: Yes, yes, we, I think that all of marketing is kind of cyclical. It just all goes in a circle. So we’re kind of going back to a little bit more of that admin era, like 1920s, 1930s, uh, well up to 1950s, where, people were much more conscious about what they were putting on things. They studied humans a lot.
[00:07:49] Sarah: Closer, I think, than we used to, like in early 2000s. The interesting part though is this is a really weird time to be an ad man, ad woman, whatever you say it, ad person. Mostly because you have the ability to run messaging tests in volume, right? Like at scale. So a lot of these people I think are becoming more skilled at understanding what I need to say, how I need to say it.
[00:08:10] Sarah: And when in particular, when is probably the least, prioritized piece of this, which I find funny. But the problem that we’re having now is because we can test at volume, it’s almost more difficult, honestly, to figure out which message is going to hit because now we have thousands of messages and all of them are kind of performing, right?
[00:08:30] Courtney: Right, right. You’re
[00:08:31] Sarah: just all out in the, yes. So it’s, it’s interesting to watch what happens between marketers and consumers.
[00:08:37] Courtney: yeah. When you think about, like, pulling all of you, so you make all these beautiful creatives, you bring the psychology in, and then that all gets translated into data, which is ultimately what is kind of creating every decision after. The ad is run. Has there ever been a time where the data told a story that you weren’t expecting and you kind of shifted strategy completely?
[00:09:01] Sarah: So I was working with an agency that had a brand that was doing pretty well, but they noticed that like all of their ads were very product focused, right?
[00:09:09] Sarah: So they were like, I don’t know why it is, but we can’t get away from product. We keep trying to do UGC and lifestyle and all these different types of ads, but they’re not performing. The only ones that perform are a very specific type of product shot and it’s a weird product. And I was like, okay, well show me what you’re looking at.
[00:09:24] Sarah: So. The brand that they were running this for was for like bamboo sheets, right? So they had a bunch of different colors, really pretty ones, all kinds of pastels. And then they basically had two colors that were highly masculine, right? So it was like a gray, like a slate color and then like a Navy. I came in looking at the data and if you looked at it, just from a straight number standpoint, you would see that the primary purchaser was a female, somewhere between the ages of 35 and 55.
[00:09:48] Sarah: So this is a Gen Xer, like slight boomer, you know, skew. And the interesting part was, is they were like, all of our stuff goes to females. We don’t understand, like, why, the colors that are doing the best are actually the male focus colors. So the slate and the Navy are the ones that they click on, but that’s not what they’re buying.
[00:10:06] Sarah: They will come in to those colors, but they will buy pinks, blues, grays, like, you know, browns. They’re like, we don’t understand why this is working at all. So we literally can’t get, we cannot get any other color other than the masculine colors to work. So if you look at it from like just a media buying standpoint, you would assume, oh, we just need to push pinks.
[00:10:26] Sarah: Because women like the pinks, right? They’re buying
[00:10:30] Courtney: selling on the website.
[00:10:31] Sarah: that’s what’s selling. So why? Yeah, we should push what’s selling. That’s the logical thing to do. But if you look at it from an emotional non logical standpoint, which is what we should all be kind of focusing on. If you look at it from the standpoint of.
[00:10:44] Sarah: Why is she purchasing these sheets and how is she purchasing them is probably the most important piece. What we noticed was, okay, this is somebody who’s probably married, right? Or in some sort of relationship. She’s looking at sheets from the lens of what type of sheet will my husband probably like? So as she’s seeing this scroll past her screen, it’s very possible that she’s looking at kind of a slate in a navy color saying, Oh, those are colors that my husband likes.
[00:11:10] Sarah: So she’ll click into that. Go ahead and show her husband and say, these are the sheets I’m going to buy, and then purchase the color that she actually likes, not the color that her husband probably said, yeah, those look like good sheets. Just buy whatever color you want, right? So behavior is interesting because the numbers only tell half the story.
[00:11:29] Courtney: Mm hmm.
[00:11:30] Sarah: If we were just looking at it from a media buyer standpoint, we would have switched all of our ads to pink. Blue, gray, right? And assumed, Oh, why aren’t these working? Like this, this is just strange. I, we can’t get these to hit instead. I told them you need to double down on the more masculine colors and let’s get some UGC between a wife and a husband and start talking about the fact that she’s bringing these sheets to him, validating her purchase first and then purchasing the colors that she wants.
[00:11:56] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:11:58] Sarah: about all of the weird things that humans do in their own homes when there’s no marketer around
[00:12:02] Courtney: Yeah, it’s almost like you’ve extended because we look at the funnel, right? So they click on an ad, they go to the website, they do some stuff, they click certain places, they join an email list, you know, like you look at your funnel, but it’s almost like you’re extending it to a little bit more of like a lifestyle funnel.
[00:12:19] Courtney: So, like, what happens outside of the Internet that we can track, like, what’s actually going on? before they make that purchase.
[00:12:27] Sarah: Well, there’s a marketing funnel. And then as you said, there’s like a behavioral funnel and you have to know both and behavior alters depending on context, depending on who you’re with. So behavior that happens in golf is not going to happen in like hockey, right? Behavior that happens in knitting is not going to happen in crocheting.
[00:12:43] Sarah: Like there’s just differences between the two. And again, some of this is just Sarah’s weird and I just like to study humans down on the ridiculous level, but a lot of this is pretty easy for brands to get access to, right? So most of the time we can go to the people in our lives, somebody we know, right?
[00:12:58] Sarah: Who’s currently looking to buy sheets and say, okay, can you just walk me through the process of like, who’s involved in that process? Who’s involved in the purchase? And what are you guys actually looking at together so that I can figure out what I need to do to sell more sheets?
[00:13:11] Courtney: Yeah. And also, if you, like survey your customers. I know that that’s something that you guys do as well, where you can ask like your best customers like pretty unique questions. You don’t have to just say like, do you like this or do you not like this?
[00:13:25] Courtney: Like you can ask and they’ll answer. People love sharing their opinions.
[00:13:28] Sarah: Yeah, they really do. They really do. I, and that’s some of, one of the interesting things that we do at Tether that I haven’t seen many people do in other places, they do it in market research, like big market research for like Pepsi and whoever else. But D2C has yet to kind of see this style of survey run.
[00:13:43] Sarah: So at Tether, we don’t run a multiple choice text based questions. So oftentimes I’ll see on the survey, at least most people will start with, how did you hear about us? What did you like most about our products? What could we change to do better? Like, which products do you want to see us do? Like those type of very logical foundational questions.
[00:14:00] Sarah: The toughest part about that is depending on how you ask the question, you’ll often get back a different answer, right? So I could ask you, what’s your favorite color, blue or yellow, right? You have two options, so it’s pretty easy for you to say, yellow, I guess, right? Or blue, whichever one it is. But I could also ask you, what’s your favorite color, In general, that gives a totally different answer because now you don’t have context, right?
[00:14:24] Sarah: You don’t have blue or yellow to match it with, so you could say magenta, right? How you ask the question directly changes what answer you get back. At Tether, we’ve kind of chosen to step away from the text based questions and move into pictorial surveys. So, I’m sure you’ve seen these surveys, all over online, but it’s like, what Harry Potter house should you be in?
[00:14:43] Sarah: And you have to choose, right, which image. There’s like a flower, there’s a house, there’s a lion, there’s a snake, whatever it is. And depending on the combination of questions, and the combination of answers that you provide, it’ll give you kind of a general, like, okay, here’s what we think about you, based on everyone else’s responses as well.
[00:14:59] Sarah: So it’s an average kind of a thing. We’re doing something similar at Tether, where for each, question, pictorial survey that we’re running. It’s part of something I call the CIM, which is the core identity map. When you run a CIM on pictorial surveys, I can get down into what do these people think subconsciously?
[00:15:14] Sarah: Because your reaction to a picture is much more emotionally focused than your reaction to text. Because text is a logical brain process, and pictures are like an emotional brain process. So, The interesting part is you can get some really weird data
[00:15:28] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:15:29] Sarah: on how people feel about themselves. So it’s fascinating when you start to go into surveys and start to try and get more, I guess closer to what your customers are feeling just by asking them what they think.
[00:15:41] Sarah: It’s massively powerful.
[00:15:43] Courtney: I know that we’ve, we’ve stolen a lot of those
[00:15:45] Sarah: Yes. Yes.
[00:15:47] Courtney: because we, and, and passing that on to the clients. We’re like, we’ll, we’ll put together the survey. We just need that data because it’s going to cut out so much time in the testing process.
[00:15:58] Courtney: It’s going to save you so much more money in the long run. If you can just start from, like, a place closer to the truth, based on what your customers are telling you. If you don’t want to send a survey, you can always like, look at all their, they have enough reviews.
[00:16:11] Courtney: Like people, you’ll start to see trends in reviews, which is helpful. And people like to share like unique stories within their reviews sometimes. Um, and there’s always some so interesting things that you just would never think of that pop up there. Yeah.
[00:16:28] Sarah: analyzing reviews for not just emotional sentiment but Context, like I said, stories. I want to know how you got to where you got to. Cause often they’ll start with like, I was shopping with my sister and we were really looking for a good present for my mom and we couldn’t find anything.
[00:16:40] Sarah: And then we found this brand you can start to kind of see, like you said, trends. So often stories will like align with other stories from other customers. And so you don’t have to spend as much time trying to figure out, you know, what Is this a viable source of information?
[00:16:54] Sarah: Because you can validate it with other people inside your review ecosystem. So it’s, it’s, ah, I love reviews. I can’t get enough of them.
[00:17:00] Courtney: Yeah, and I guess, that kind of takes us to, like, you’re creating these avatars based on the surveys, the reviews, the research that you’re doing. How are you able to help clients identify their customers and like what they really care about that’s not just demographics? So I think a lot of times we’re like, we market to women ages 18 to 34 and, and that’s like kind of where it ends.
[00:17:23] Courtney: And you’re like, well, there’s so many assumptions that you could make about women between 18 and 34, but it sounds like you kind of disregard age and gender, or maybe you don’t. Tell me more about that.
[00:17:33] Sarah: Yeah. So the only reason I use age and demographic information, specifically just age, is I’m trying to figure out which generation they’re a part of. So, and generational data is, I think, pretty important, um, mostly because it’ll tell me a little bit about what their worldview is, right? So, depending on which generation you were born in, you had a very different culture.
[00:17:51] Sarah: parent. And I think I’ve talked about this in a couple different places, but like how you were parented directly affects how you feel about life, the worldview that you create of yourself and what you think about resource, right? Like gaining resources. So if you were a boomer, you had a silent generation parent who kind of grew up in a very volatile period of time where we had to survive a great depression and we had to survive all these different like wars and things economically that was changing.
[00:18:18] Sarah: So the silent gen parent was one of those people that was very hands off with their kids. They didn’t provide a whole lot of emotional support. So the boomer became somebody who was highly independent, right? But kind of sensitive to this idea of do I matter, right? Like, am I important? Because that’s not something they got from their parents.
[00:18:35] Sarah: The boomers then came into their parenting like era. And they had all these Gen Xers that they were trying to raise, but the Boomers were also in a very volatile period where they were also going through like wars, Vietnam and a couple different economic like crisis, lots of political unrest. So they were kind of busy.
[00:18:52] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:18:53] Sarah: And, you know, Boomers were also the very first. I think to prioritize two people working out of the home, whereas before the boomers, we just didn’t have that in the culture. So boomers then taught this idea to their Gen X kids, which is like, you need to be independent because I had to be, and I want to validate you emotionally, but I just don’t know how.
[00:19:11] Sarah: So it was still kind of like emotionally distant. The Gen Xers then passed this down to their millennial children. Um, but the Gen Xers were the very first to decide definitively that we are not going to allow our children to feel emotionally like, um, abandoned, right? So the Gen Xers started to validate the millennials heavily, just heavy amounts of validation.
[00:19:34] Sarah: So the millennials were the first generation to hear every part of you is acceptable. And they were also the very first to have that emotional connection with their parents. From this, and this is why you’ll hear a lot of people say, like, the Millennials broke everything. They just broke everything.
[00:19:49] Sarah: Because the Millennials finally got the message of, like, you’re important, you’re validated, right? Like, you’re, you’re a worthwhile human. You have value just by being you. So they then passed this down to their Gen Z kids. Like, it just, it kind of, like, rolls, right? Depending on what, you know. What’s happening in the culture, what’s happening economically and politically, and how you feel about the world kind of comes into play when you start purchasing things.
[00:20:10] Sarah: So, each generation is going to have their own culture. I guess subset of purchasing behaviors. So demographically, what I want to know is, is this accurate? Are we actually pulling in a Gen Xer or a Boomer or a Gen Zer? Who is it that we’re actually pulling in that’s purchasing from us? And then I can do a little bit of, um, I guess like strategy work around.
[00:20:33] Sarah: Okay. I know a lot about what the millennials feel about the world, so I can kind of message to what they believe as a person and it makes marketing a whole lot easier cause we don’t have to guess as to what, what types of messages are going to get them in the door. Um, it’s, it’s just a lot more streamlined, I guess you could say so.
[00:20:51] Courtney: Yeah, no, that’s brilliant. And I think it’s something that like, Is easy to understand because we interact with people all day every day inside work outside of work and there are definite generational differences and to Not ignore that is like that seems so obvious But I think a lot of times people just don’t even think of that as something that should be considered when they’re selling something
[00:21:17] Sarah: but because it seems like a lot. I’ve had this answer a ton from people. They’re always like, Sarah, this is a lot. Like you’re looking at all of this every single time you
[00:21:26] Courtney: We are all the way zoomed out right
[00:21:28] Sarah: Yes, and I’m
[00:21:29] Courtney: like, how do I sell this toothbrush?
[00:21:32] Sarah: I’m also just like, it’s interesting to me, right? Like, and that, that’s helpful for Sarah.
[00:21:36] Sarah: So this is the reason why I always tell brands, I don’t think you need to do this much work. Like you don’t need to go this deep into it unless you have someone on your team that just really enjoys this type of information and wants to learn more about it. If you don’t have time for it, hire someone like Sarah to do it for you.
[00:21:52] Courtney: Right. Right.
[00:21:53] Sarah: you don’t have to do all of the thought process around. Who are they as an identity? How are they parented? How do you know what’s their behavior inside the home? Like all these things are things that we track at tether, but it’s, it’s also stuff that if you are interested in it, it’s just fascinating stuff.
[00:22:11] Sarah: And you can generate amazing results inside ad accounts, inside email, everywhere you go in your brand and help a lot more people if you’re more cognizant of it.
[00:22:20] Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. I think there is kind of this, challenge though with, like, You, you kind of know the behavior and all of that, you know, all that juicy stuff that we just talked about, but there is like also the authenticity of the brand and like who the brand actually is. So how do you balance leveraging psychology to influence that customer behavior while also maintaining authenticity in the message?
[00:22:44] Sarah: Yes, I think this is a such an interesting, like topic and one that we don’t talk about really enough, which is why are we even a brand? Right? So we used to have these things, especially in like early 19, I don’t know, 1990s up to like early 2000s, where everybody had a mission, it was like all over their pages.
[00:23:02] Sarah: They had a brand mission page. This is our values. These are our missions. And then we kind of just did away with them. Like for some reason, early 2000s, we just kind of stopped using them. So some brands have them wrapped up into what’s called a founder story now, right? Like the founder became kind of the mission for the whole entire brand.
[00:23:19] Sarah: And I think that was born out of the fact that the marketers kind of noticed that personal brands were doing better than just brand mission. Now, the toughest part about that is I think Because we kind of got away from missions for the brand, we kind of lost sight as to like why do we, why are we even doing any of this?
[00:23:37] Sarah: Like what, what’s the point of being a brand, right? I think it’s kind of sad that we, we morphed away from that because to your point, like, we need to somehow balance growth and sales and like business and brand, which is like Where we stand in the culture, right? Like, why are you an entity as, as, why does your business exist?
[00:23:58] Sarah: Is, are you actually helping people get something that they really crave in their life? So, I try really hard to focus. I have all of this knowledge around the customer, who they are, how they were parented, how they behave, all these different things. And I take that back to the brands and we can create strategies from there to say, this is who you’re actually dealing with.
[00:24:16] Sarah: they’re very fragile human, who’s very emotional, who has very deep problems in their life that they’re trying to solve. And this is how we probably need to message to that as a brand. So. I talk about these guys all the time but Liquid Death is probably one of the best ones I’ve ever seen. Mostly because they understand their customers on a psychological level that not a lot of brands do.
[00:24:36] Sarah: And they provide something to that audience outside of product that really does just generate such a good rapport. Like, if you’ve ever experienced the Liquid Death ecosystem, you really do feel like this is somebody that I identify with. So it became a human.
[00:24:52] Courtney: Yeah.
[00:24:53] Sarah: Yeah. So you’ve got to prioritize both
[00:24:55] Courtney: I feel like Liquid Death did a lot, did very similar work to, like, Red Bull, where it was much more experiential. Like, you know, if you go to any Any show, like if you go to basement shows even, you’ll see Liquid Death is kinda everywhere. And it’s cause it’s, it’s like playing directly into, like, who their consumer is.
[00:25:14] Courtney: Um, and it’s just, it’s everywhere. It’s sponsoring everything. It’s not just ads, which I think is the direction a lot of brands have to go in, in order to be, like, actually impactful. And, and kind of, like, prove their authenticity to not just pay to get in front of people, you
[00:25:29] Sarah: Yeah. 100%. I think, um, some of the other good brands that I’ve seen do this, uh, Disney actually used to be really good at it in the 1990s. And then they kind of like fell off a little bit. But I have some smaller brands that do it incredibly well. Original Grain is probably one of the only other ones that I’ve noticed they’re starting to think about this, right?
[00:25:46] Sarah: So, Original Grain sells reclaimed watches from like firewood and whiskey barrels and all these kinds of different things. Nate is a really good friend of mine. Obviously, he is on my podcast. But the reason I like their brand is because they know very deeply who their customer is. And when I say who, I’m not talking about demographics, right?
[00:26:03] Sarah: We’re not specifically talking about It’s a 45 year old male that really loves watches. I’m talking about who identity wise, right? So he identifies as a family man. He identifies as a blue collar guy. He identifies as somebody who has a lot of morals, who’s very upstanding, who works hard, who’s got good work ethic, right?
[00:26:22] Sarah: So if you can identify all of these different pieces of the customer’s identity, that’s where it’s a lot easier to balance your brand We have to grow, but we also want to help at the same time. Cause you’ll be able to align it a lot better if you know those things.
[00:26:40] Courtney: Yeah. Do you feel like, because I, I, I feel like we think about like the early 2000s, which it sounds like that’s where everything kind of fell apart a little bit.
[00:26:48] Sarah: Yep. A little bit.
[00:26:49] Courtney: Um, I feel like there was a lot of kind of manufacturing of trust. So a brand would say, trust us, trust us, trust us. And now we have to show and earn that trust.
[00:26:59] Courtney: Do you think that there’s a way that trust can still be manufactured or has the internet really made authenticity unavoidable? Like you. You just have to actually do the work to prove to consumers that you’re legit.
[00:27:10] Sarah: Yeah. Oh, this is a good question. I think from like a brand standpoint. I think this is interesting because it really was right when we saw social media become like a thing in the culture, like a thing to the point where everyone had it on their phones and everyone was using it all at the same time. As soon as social media started to happen, trust just like disintegrated inside every market and every brand for every vertical across the board.
[00:27:38] Sarah: And I think that happened mostly because we have almost too much information. So for a long time, the brands were kind of like this big entity that was like, we don’t know what’s going on over there. They’re just a big business, right? It’s Coca Cola. Like, how do we know what they’re doing? So we had no choice basically, but to trust what they said until something came along that negated that belief of like, I can trust this brand or this business.
[00:28:03] Sarah: Now. We have so many reviews and so many comments across the board that it’s, it’s almost easier to find reasons not to trust than it is to have a reason to trust. So the brands unfortunately are starting off on like the wrong foot automatically because consumers just don’t trust the brands because we’ve been kind of socially taught not to, because we’ve got too much information.
[00:28:29] Sarah: So that’s a tough one.
[00:28:30] Courtney: It is. I think also there’s like, do you want like a super quick win? You could probably fake it for a little bit, but ultimately, like, as you grow, the more eyeballs on you, the harder it is to maintain that trust. And you kind of think about it with like, I think about with pop stars a lot where you have like these pop stars who are so beloved, everybody loves them.
[00:28:51] Courtney: But once they get to a certain level of fame, everyone kind of just turns on them immediately. Cause, All of a sudden, there’s just so many more voices talking about them, and so there’s so much more negative commentary coming in, then that starts to impact everybody’s thought. So, I feel like small businesses, you can get away with a little bit more, but as soon as you get any kind of notoriety, people are locked in and they’re trying to find the flaw.
[00:29:14] Courtney: So,
[00:29:15] Sarah: they try, they look for it. Oh
[00:29:16] Courtney: and you gotta, you gotta think as like a business owner, like you wanna be authentic, you wanna be true, you don’t wanna be selling lies or anything. Um, But I think you also just have to be, like, very mindful about continuously proving it to the customers. Even customers who you’ve had for years, you still need to be continuously earning that trust,
[00:29:35] Sarah: Yeah. Well, they’ve done a lot of studies too about, um, the fact that kind of like, What do you call it? Uh, fronting your flaws, right? Is actually kind of a benefit to these brands. And I think what happens is the brands think that we have to put on this super shiny, wonderful, beautiful face at all times.
[00:29:50] Sarah: At any stage of growth, we have to be perfection. Our customer service and all of our emails, everything has to be like at peak. The problem with that is when you do have a downfall. It will be a lot harder to recover from that because they’ve never seen the human side of you. So they just assumed you were a robot and then they figured out, like, randomly one day when a customer service thing went bad, right, that you were not, that you were actually humans on the inside of this business and that tainted enough of their view and they’re, you know, upset about it enough, they feel jaded, right, that they’ll go and just blast you everywhere.
[00:30:27] Sarah: Now, it could be the smallest thing, like, itty bitty thing that they just decided they didn’t like about it. And they would still go and like, just tear you apart on social media. But this is the reason why, in my business, I constantly have typos in my tweets. And I constantly, like, I have emails that I send that are just like, oh, shoot, like, I should have said that differently, right?
[00:30:46] Sarah: But I just leave it, and I just, I try not to take it personally, like, if anybody points it out. Because at this point, when Sarah does get typos in my tweets, people will point it out and be like, you said there were three reasons, and this, this goes one, two, four. Like, what’s happening here? And I’m like, ah, I don’t know, I was writing a post at like 2 AM.
[00:31:03] Sarah: I don’t know. But the interesting part about it is now that I’ve gotten to this point in my business is especially since I’ve started Tether, I keep telling my team we gotta stay human. We gotta stay as human as possible. So if there are typos in emails, just leave them. Like, don’t take them out, right? If there are places in the business where it feels a little janky, just leave it.
[00:31:23] Sarah: Because at this point, I don’t need people to think we’re perfect. I just need people to know that we know what we’re doing. And trust is built through seeing a little bit of both sides. The human side and the brand side.
[00:31:35] Courtney: I think I could definitely learn from that. I think that, because I’ve always like, details are so important. And they, I think they are. But I think that if you can get the big stuff right, and like the important stuff right, And be human about the things that are like typos or communication or whatever it is.
[00:31:53] Courtney: I think that’s going to take you farther. It’s going to be like hard, like people are going to call you out about your little typos. You’re like, just, it’s fine. Like, you know what I meant, right?
[00:32:00] Sarah: Yes, exactly. You know what I meant. That’s
[00:32:02] Sarah: what
[00:32:03] Courtney: you can humanize your brand and you can humanize like your team, I think people will be also kinder to your brand as
[00:32:10] Sarah: Yes, so much kinder. Especially because it will draw on the type of person who, who is okay with that, right? Like, who is okay with there being humans involved in business. And you’re always going to get some people who are just cranky. Like, that’s just going to happen in business and in brands. But, at the end of the day, I want to just surround myself with a lot of people who are just all kind of moving the same direction I am, because we can all kind of support each other in that.
[00:32:32] Sarah: Even as a customer, you know, I want my customers to be my best friends because then I can ask them questions and be like, What should I do better? How can I fix this?
[00:32:41] Courtney: And they’re, they’re more likely to tell you what’s wrong before they leave. Like, that’s also a really big, important part of
[00:32:46] Sarah: Yeah, they’re much more empathetic. I think. Yeah,
[00:32:49] Courtney: Yeah. Kind of on that note, I know that, you know, we were kind of saying that customers just expect more from their brands than they did in the past.
[00:32:57] Courtney: Do you see those expectations evolving even more in the next three to five years?
[00:33:02] Sarah: I think, um, most brands kind of caught the wave of millennial Gen X purchasing, um, and we talked about millennials like heavily over the last four years, but very, very few people have started to notice that like Gen Zers are going to have a drastically different expectation of brands than any other generation before, because they’re the first kind of like what I call like emotional wizards, right?
[00:33:23] Sarah: So they had millennial parents who not only validated. What they were doing, but they also invested heavily into their identity. So you noticed young millennials in particular and Gen Z ers are really, really concerned about identity, right? Who am I as a human and how is that accepted in this particular like cultural set?
[00:33:44] Sarah: Gen Xers are not concerned about, like, what their identity is, right? And neither are boomers. Boomers especially are just like, I know who I am and, like, this is what we do, right? So, but the, the Gen Zers want to be able to morph on a daily basis if necessary. Whoever they are and what they want to be, how they want to view the world.
[00:33:59] Sarah: So, when this, like, comes back to, you know, how do we, like, generate good strategies from this and how do we kind of push into this? I, I think it comes down to understanding what’s coming up next. Because we, again, millennials are still going to be purchasing for a very, very long time. Even old millennials like myself, like, we’re going to be purchasers for a while.
[00:34:21] Sarah: But, our behavior is kind of just affecting the generations that come after us. So, I think the brands need to be more cognizant of what’s coming up next, and keep track, right, of what is important to each generation. So that way you can kind of morph with them, instead of like, trying to catch up
[00:34:41] Sarah: to
[00:34:41] Sarah: what they’re doing.
[00:34:42] Courtney: Because you think about it, it’s like Gen Alpha is right around the corner. They’re about to start getting their first jobs and they’re
[00:34:48] Courtney: going to be going to college pretty soon here. And I mean, those kids went through COVID. So like, we don’t even, we have no idea how they’re thinking or how they’re acting.
[00:34:57] Sarah: Nope. Nope. Nope. I mean, I have a four year old. He was born in COVID like during the quarantine and it was just like, holy cow. And you see it in his personality. Like he’s much more comfortable with family than he is with like people outside in the world because those critical years of socialization, he just missed.
[00:35:13] Sarah: So we just have no idea what Gen Alpha is gonna be like. Like this, this particular generation may not purchase anything at all.
[00:35:21] Courtney: Right.
[00:35:22] Sarah: Like may, they might just go minimalist and like live in a van and that’ll be, just be like what they do. We
[00:35:27] Courtney: you gotta start selling bands. You know, you gotta think ahead.
[00:35:30] Sarah: selling vans. Yeah, it’s a great time to be in vans, that’s for sure.
[00:35:33] Courtney: Awesome. Well, if you could change anything about the way that, so you work with a lot of brands, you come in and ideally make transformational change for them. I’m sure sometimes there’s resistance or challenges that you, you kind of are constantly facing because it is a new way of thinking and it, it does take a lot more upfront effort.
[00:35:54] Courtney: It feels to, to get to the crux of the behavioral, um, To the behavior. Um, but if you could change one thing about how any business approaches data and marketing with the idea of behavioral analysis in that, what would it be?
[00:36:10] Sarah: My gosh, um, Yeah. I would probably, uh, I would suggest every brand do what Kenny’s doing at the Wander Club. Shout out to Kenny. Kenny, you’re brilliant. Um, I love what Kenny’s doing because he’s testing everything, right? Like, there for a minute, Kenny was testing all kinds of different methodologies from everybody that was kind of a big player on Twitter and wherever else in D2C just to see what was fitting, right?
[00:36:31] Sarah: Just to see, is this going to work? Is this going to work? Is this going to work? When Kenny and I worked together, we did a lot of analysis into, uh, identity, customer stories, understanding like how emotional, uh, their purchases were, those type of things. And I wish more brands would go that route of let’s take the data we have and see if we can pull out behavior or emotional insights.
[00:36:53] Sarah: It’s just based upon making kind of correlations between two different things, right? So obviously, correlation is not causation. Two things that are kind of related to each other doesn’t mean that they’re actually causing each other. But, If you can get down to a correlation that is, what would I say, like, um, based in kind of behavioral data, you can start to like test some things on the brand side that, that will drive results within 24 hours.
[00:37:19] Sarah: Like, and that’s the interesting part I think about emotional marketing is it’s very efficient.
[00:37:25] Courtney: Yes.
[00:37:26] Sarah: real quick, like you don’t have to try and test things, A B test things for weeks or months to get some sort of reaction from the consumers. It can happen in two weeks and I’ve seen it many, many, many, many times now where we’ll change just a few things emotionally or messaging wise and get down into the actual deep details of what this person’s feeling and things overnight, just complete difference, like transracial difference.
[00:37:52] Sarah: I wish more brands would use the data they have and just start doing the work of analyzing for emotional data and insights instead of just transactional. Yeah.
[00:38:06] Courtney: like, you already have, you already have, if you have been running an e com website, and you’ve been selling for even just a few months, and you’ve gotten, if you’ve gotten any traffic to your website, you already have quite a bit of data through Google Analytics, through, if you run any kind of ads, you have a ton of data there.
[00:38:22] Courtney: And I think it’s about just organizing it, and thinking about it in a different
[00:38:26] Sarah: it all together. Yes.
[00:38:27] Courtney: Like, just pull it all together and then shift your mindset a little bit. Um, I think also one thing, we talk about ads a lot, but adjusting your website also makes a huge difference. And paying attention to using, like, heatmaps.
[00:38:40] Courtney: Do you use any tools apart from heatmaps to track behavior on websites?
[00:38:44] Sarah: Yes. Okay. So the one that I use is actually called heat map. Um, good friend of mine, Dylan, who runs heat maps, but his, his is interesting because it tracks revenue data, right. To each and every element on the website, which I find super fascinating. So he maps are one of the best ways to figure out exactly where people are are currently like migrating across your site.
[00:39:04] Sarah: Um, but outside of that, on the website level, one of the things I like to track honestly is, um, It’s a little bit of CRO, but I like to change, uh, choice architecture on sites. So, oddly enough, and I don’t know what this is, uh, or where we decided that this was a thing, but a lot of the brands keep the default settings for all of the checkout pages, which I find interesting.
[00:39:25] Sarah: Um, and even some of the, like, the CRO agencies that I work with, they will tweak things based upon what they know currently CRO kind of realm. But what they don’t change is choice architecture, so they won’t change which order things are actually presented in, right? So, oftentimes what I find, especially on like checkout pages, cart pages, um, we have all of this data and information we need from somebody, which is usually credit card information, those type of things, but we’ll put it all on one page.
[00:39:52] Sarah: Where it’s like, we need all of this information from you in order for you to get what you want to purchase. That drives me crazy. Cause I’m like, that’s so heavy for the brain. It’s like, jeez, I need an address and I need my credit card. We’re getting used to it as consumers, right? Cause we have to do it everywhere.
[00:40:08] Sarah: Amazon though was frickin smart. They were like, let’s make this like so ridiculously simple that all you have to do is click one button. One. And go ahead and purchase. Yes. I wish to God more brands would understand this like cognitive load that we are putting on our consumers to provide all this information to us is drastically decreasing conversion rates.
[00:40:32] Sarah: Just because choice architecture, man, you have to engineer the ecosystem so that it’s easy to make the right decision, not difficult to make the right decision.
[00:40:42] Courtney: Yeah, and when you think about like all the time people put into like making a beautiful website design and these beautiful landing pages and product pages and They test so many different things to get people to move to the next step And then once they add to cart, they’re like, oh, they’ll figure it out Like it’ll be fine and I think part of it is because it’s difficult to tweak add like that cart Like, you really do need to work with, like, a developer and not accidentally break your entire site.
[00:41:07] Courtney: But that is where you should be spending your time. Like, I always say, like, you should, you need to invest in a good website. Your checkout process, like you said, needs to be very good. Invest in, like, tools that you can actually, like, track what is happening on your website. Before you spend money on ads and start sending traffic to your site, if you can’t then use that traffic, even if they don’t buy, you should be learning something from every click that goes to your website.
[00:41:32] Sarah: single one. Oh, I agree with this a hundred percent. I’m totally aligned. Smart. So smart. Mostly because so on the website, you notice that the process that’s most interesting for the consumer is the decision choice process, right? So they get to decide what colors do I want? What size do I need?
[00:41:47] Sarah: Right? Like they might mix and match some things, put some things in their cart. That add to cart button is not purchase intent. I wish people understood.
[00:41:54] Sarah: Add to cart does not mean I’m going to purchase from you. It literally is a save for later button. That’s all it is. It’s just to put it somewhere so I can come back to it later.
[00:42:03] Sarah: If I happen to remember that I put it in there, which is a very low chance. So in general, I try and tell people you’re basically making all of the fun stuff happen. before they get to the hardest part. Whereas if we would honestly do better to have somebody click on this add to cart and it immediately goes to, Hey, do you want to load your credit card information so you don’t have to deal with it later?
[00:42:26] Sarah: Right. Or even better, honestly, would make people load their credit card information before we even get to the fun part. So it’s a little bit more gamified now. In a perfect world, this would act as like a type form, sort of. So type form’s fantastic because they do one question. They don’t have all their survey questions in a roll so you can, you know, scroll through them and decide like, this is too much work.
[00:42:46] Sarah: The very smart type form just did one question on one page and you have to answer that question before you go to the next one, right? I think it’d be really interesting to change a checkout page to where you can only enter in one piece of information at a time and you can’t see what’s next.
[00:43:02] Courtney: Yeah. Or how
[00:43:03] Courtney: much
[00:43:03] Sarah: Cause it reduces that cognitive load of like, geez, I got to answer all this information. I don’t have time for this right now. I’m just going to skip out and keep it in the cart. I would so much rather gamify the cart process as much as you’ve gamified the product choice process so that both of them are equally fun.
[00:43:21] Courtney: Yeah. I love that idea. I feel like I haven’t seen that anywhere,
[00:43:26] Courtney: and it’s such
[00:43:27] Sarah: why hasn’t someone done this yet?
[00:43:29] Sarah: Yes.
[00:43:30] Courtney: and it can’t be that hard to figure out, like,
[00:43:32] Sarah: I know,
[00:43:32] Courtney: you can test it in a day. See what happens.
[00:43:36] Sarah: Yeah, yes, well I just know as a consumer myself, I’m like half of the reason I don’t purchase things is because I don’t want to have to put in my credit card information.
[00:43:42] Sarah: It’s too much work.
[00:43:43] Courtney: And you, like, are looking at your cart, and There’s just so much, like, it’s, when you look at your cart, it’s not nearly as fun as looking at the product page, which is selling you constantly. Like, you’re looking at all these fun graphs and stuff. When you get to the cart, all of that is gone. So
[00:43:57] Sarah: It’s all gone, yes. We take out all the fun stuff. I’m like, what is going on?
[00:44:01] Courtney: Make carts fun.
[00:44:03] Sarah: You did all the work to try and get this person into the cart that as soon as they’re in the cart You’re like back to boring business. I’m like, no, no, no, no, make it fun. Make it fun. I
[00:44:13] Courtney: How’s it, well, when you’re looking ahead, um, To the next few years. I hope Tether Insights is around for a very long time. What is the impact that you’re hoping Tether Insights will have on the brands you work with and really like as an industry?
[00:44:29] Sarah: Gosh, oh
[00:44:30] Courtney: It’s a big question.
[00:44:31] Sarah: It’s a big question In general, I think, uh, the reason I started it was mostly because it was interesting to me, and that sounds weird, but I’m like, I just hope it stays around just so I get to keep doing this as
[00:44:41] Courtney: yeah
[00:44:42] Courtney: yeah
[00:44:43] Sarah: really, really like it, and I think it’s just fascinating studying humans and what they’re doing and how they’re behaving.
[00:44:48] Sarah: Outside of that, though, I’m really hoping that kind of tether Invites more Consumer Insights brands or companies into D2C because D2C is interesting. It’s, it’s a huge industry. It’s massive. Like there’s just so much money flowing over here, but very, very, very few resources for the people who operate over here.
[00:45:09] Sarah: So a lot of the media buyers, creative strategists, people who are like on the operational side, um, project managers, those type of people. They rarely get access to the data that they need to do their jobs well. So that was half the reason why I was like, I got to start pushing this out to other people and start providing this.
[00:45:25] Sarah: Cause I, I just see the operators struggling and they’re trying so hard to come up with good ways to grow brands based on old archaic data and strategies. So that was kind of one of the reasons I was like, we just really need more. We just need more education for the people who are running the brands.
[00:45:42] Sarah: And then outside of that. I think it’d be really nice, like I said, for, for more brands and businesses to start popping up inside the consumer insights realm, um, especially on the emotional side. Cause there’s, there’s, you can go get data from anywhere. There’s insight companies all over the place, big and small, that will help you figure out, you know, specific pieces, but very few of them, I think, focus on how will we’re like our emotional training as humans, especially in different markets.
[00:46:12] Sarah: So there’s, you know, You know, as far as I know, I’m the only one on Twitter right now doing this, but that doesn’t mean I’m the only one in DTC. Like, there’s probably somebody else doing emotional work like this, but in the U. S., very few. In the E. U., even fewer, right? Over in, like, um, like, I have a big following, like, in Pakistan and all these different, like, um, countries, India and China, I have lots of different people that are contacting from there, and all of them say the same thing.
[00:46:36] Sarah: They’re like, we’ve never heard anything like this.
[00:46:38] Courtney: Yeah. Yeah, which is, I mean, it’s wild because it’s so true to, like, our human nature. Like, it’s such an easy connection to make, but I think people, when they put on their business hat, all of their, like, human side, like, leaves the building while they focus on the numbers.
[00:46:52] Sarah: Yep. It’s totally true. So Yeah.
[00:46:55] Sarah: I, I would just hope that I get to keep doing this as a job. That this, the support will finally come through for people who are operating, that we can get the data we actually need to generate good strategies and grow brands. But then also just so that every, the whole world will become a little bit more focused on the emotion because I think the more empathetic we are, the, the better it gets for all of us as a whole.
[00:47:16] Courtney: Yeah. No, that’s so true. And I think sometimes we as like advertisers lose sight of like the humanity of like you’re serving this thing asking someone to buy something to like another human. Is there a way that we can do it in a way that like really serves them and it’s actually something that they need and want and makes them feel good and not terrible about themselves.
[00:47:37] Courtney: And I think all of that kind of like, Approaching it with more empathy and like understanding the human emotion behind it. Um, I would hope that that is a direction we can go and we can call it the Sarah standard.
[00:47:51] Sarah: Sarah’s doing it. Oh my gosh, that’s amazing. Yes, 100%. I would hope that everyone would just kind of land on like more empathy, right? Just more empathy. Because again, you’re using psychology whether you know it or not. I would so much rather do it on purpose and be much more cognizant of it because, again We don’t want to just sell stuff to people just because we want them to buy it.
[00:48:10] Sarah: I would so much rather sell it to them because it actually makes an impact for
[00:48:14] Sarah: them And somehow changes their life for the better because man, it’s hard being a human
[00:48:18] Courtney: It is. And as someone who consumes ads constantly, and is constantly buying stuff, it’d be nice if all of it made me feel a little bit better about it. Um, well to close out here, uh, I always ask this question, if you could give yourself one piece of advice when you were just starting Tether Insights, what would it be?
[00:48:40] Sarah: Oh, man, um, we’re just I mean we’re so new like we’re just so new to the market that like i’m giving myself this advice For right now
[00:48:47] Courtney: Yeah. , or to you when you were just starting your career? That might be a better question.
[00:48:52] Sarah: I would probably say patience, and this is for everybody, like, especially if you’re, you’re, you know, brand new to the industry, or you’re just trying to break into any industry, and you’re like, I don’t know, like, what should I be focused on?
[00:49:01] Sarah: Patience, patience, because half the time, you don’t know that the things that you’re doing, just because you like them, are going to become such a big part of like, what makes you, you know, Uh, valuable, right, to specific markets. So if you really enjoy Minecraft and that’s just a part of like who you are and you just want to play video games all day long, but you have to go to work, don’t stop playing, like, just continue to invest because you like it.
[00:49:25] Sarah: Because, again, there’s pieces of every single thing that we do outside of our careers that will just leak into our careers, just based on small skill sets that we’re learning here and there. So patience, man, just, you know. Just continue doing stuff because it’s fun. And don’t stop doing it because you’re old or like because you don’t think you should be doing it anymore.
[00:49:44] Sarah: I still just constantly devour books on psychology just because I like it. Um, obviously I turned it into a career, but anything you’re doing could be applied to somewhere else. So just keep doing stuff because it’s fun.
[00:49:56] Courtney: Yeah. I love that. I, I think that it kind of is like. The things that you’re doing because you’re fun, because it’s fun and because you like them, those are actually the things that make you unique and give you like the perspective that other people just won’t have. And so to abandon that, to just focus on, you know, whatever you perceive your career should be, is that you’re gonna lose little parts of you that would be so valuable and like give you that edge.
[00:50:21] Sarah: 100 percent Yeah, I mean, it all comes back to like, you’re unique just because you have all these experiences and because you like things that maybe not everybody likes, which is fantastic. And You know, you’ll always find kind of a good tribe around yourself. As long as you’re continuing to do things, um, and you, you keep that kind of stoke that fire, you’ll find people that want to join you on that journey.
[00:50:42] Sarah: And I’m lucky enough that I have, cause Sarah just gets really excited about psychology and people are just like, okay, let’s go talk to Sarah for a minute. So yes, you’ll draw, you just draw people in with that kind of energy. So yeah, just keep having fun.
[00:50:55] Courtney: Great advice, great advice. Um, so where can people find you online? I know you’ve got a good Twitter, Twitter presence, but where, tell us. Yes,
[00:51:11] Sarah: please go over to, uh, tetherinsights. io, um, tetherinsights. io. Uh, that’s where we’re kind of like a hub. I’m going to keep building that out and we’re going to do a lot more around just content and resources in particular, if you want to learn how to apply psychology and behavior science to your brand.
[00:51:26] Sarah: Um, big and small. Uh, we kind of help them all. Um, the nice part is too, psychology goes everywhere, like I said before. So go find us over there and you guys can see what we’re kind of building and doing. And yeah, come talk to me. I could talk about this all day, obviously. Yes.
[00:51:43] Courtney: we just barely scratched the surface, so, um, I’m excited to, to learn more. Uh, so thank you so much for being on the show, Sarah. It’s been a great conversation.
[00:51:51] Sarah: Thank you. This has been lovely.
[00:51:53] Courtney: Awesome. And thank you to everyone at home or on the go for listening. And if you enjoyed today’s episode, please make sure to subscribe, share with a friend, leave us a review.
[00:52:01] Courtney: And if there’s anything that you’d like to hear on an episode, just let us know. For more insights, follow us on LinkedIn or visit rightleftagency. com. And we’ll be back next week with more stories of success, innovation and marketing strategies to help you grow. See you on the next one.